But but I've also seen it cited the opposite way that look they're very secretive. Peter Biello: Well Karl Jarvis a former reporter for The King's son Nile thank you very much for for calling in and sharing your perspective and to his point Patrick T. I mean yes we haven't met the scientific burden of proof here in New Hampshire as far as physical evidence is is concerned but is there room at Fish and Game For A kind of an informal nod to all of the people who have somehow convinced themselves and possibly some others that yeah there may be occasional sightings here. So let's let's go to the phones. Patrick Tate New Hampshire Fish and Game Wildlife Biologist thanks very much for being here this morning really appreciate it. The unheralded hero of Apollo John Hubble the man who knew the way to the moon. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Peter Biello: So Patrick today Fish and Game no downward pressure on you to deny the existence at all costs of mountain lions here in New Hampshire. Peter Biello: But clearly you know you're saying like hoaxes people who claim to have seen a mountain lion but knowingly have not or are appropriating photos taken elsewhere of legit mountain lion say out West where they people acknowledge that they exist certainly knowingly or unknowingly in this case the person who sent it to me said hey a friend of mine sent me this photo and said he took it on his back porch also. You know I'm like seriously I can't get a picture of the thing but what it what it is. We're not in the woods. Absolutely. Sam Evans-Brown: Certainly that is a thing I've heard but again you have to think of the incentives involved here. And that the Florida panther was more closely related to the eastern outline than the western mountain lion was. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. What kind of animal is that. But if you do if you think you're looking at a wild Puma their tail is very thick and especially in the winter is very thick and ponderous looking. They just end up in these places. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. So what a neat experience. And so a mountain lion is actually quite large right. They kill big animals. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. A 140-pound male mountain lion was hit by a car and killed in 2011 in Milford, Connecticut. New Hampshire Public Radio | . So and so they so they do get pretty involved. Get your tickets today and one for fifty dollars or six for 150 at NH PR and board. We'll hear from her periodically through the show. Patrick Tate: Okay. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. So I think the point that I just want to get across is that there is a very strong sense this here in the and not region that there is that there is some sort of mountain lion population how large it is how extensive it is. They get a lot of media attention but compared to the the amount of times that a mountain lion could attack a person but doesn't because they don't typically view us as prey. Peter Biello: Yeah well what do you think Pat is. The females disperse a shorter range and once they find a vacant home range they stay in that location and live there. John thanks. So here in New Hampshire when a person turns in something that the Department believes is possible mountain lion and believes it should be investigated further. Let us know your story and share your photos! We are the second most-forested state in the country, and those forests can be impenetrable snarls (part of why the Northeast is notoriously a difficult place to hunt deer), and while there are people in a lot of those woods, because the cats have been absent for a few generations now, most of those people dont know what a cougar scrape or latrine look and smell like. They are the same thing. There's just one subspecies of North American mountain lion. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. Despite numerous reports, the NH Fish and Game Department continues to have no physical evidence of mountain lion presence in the state. And trying to figure out the little pieces to identify him so I bring up the names the differences but the appearances can be confusing for some. So Michael follows with the question. I mean it wasn't your idea. And I think a lot of folks would like them to be around. Sam Evans-Brown: Pretty well I was going to say it is nice to hear about how to identify the facial markings but probably I'd being a to identify the tracks is probably the more useful useful tool that one can have in their tool box. We speculate they dont want us to screw up tourism we dont know whats going on. Lots of people have stories about them, people have them on their game cameras I mean its kind of a thing. Gotcha, so the Deep State is suppressing mountain lion news in order to prop up New Hampshire tourism? Peter Biello: Well I want to ask Patrick about one of these stories a few years ago you had a story about someone who claimed to. Yeah I did. If you have them email exchange at an HP board or give us a call to tell us your story. That's next time on one day. Car Crash 65 Miles From Mass. We rely on readers like you to support the local, national, and international coverage on this website. Peter Biello: Hmm. So. More than 450 Facebook users as of Thursday had shared a photo Marc Weir posted Wednesday showing the big cat and . The last wild mountain lion in New Hampshire may have been killed in the White Mountains in 1885. So the whole media hype about how scary mountain lions are should should go away immediately and that would be that I think the major thrust of educating folks about these casualties vs.. Sam Evans-Brown: Sam go ahead. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. Is there a way we can learn more about these dispersing mountain lions that may travel through the Granite State and that I would ask you certainly part about whether or not a he's spending too much time chasing down these kind of false leads or B would rather be doing something else that is more informative to whether or not we actually have or can prove that we have dispersing mountain lions in the state. And why would they what. So when we talk about the threshold of evidence required to say for sure you have seen a mountain lion it is rather high. And you know all that. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. Mountain Lion report and as a biologist for the state that's a situation where if he said to me what did I see. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. Rick van de Poll: 80 90. And the second question is this a behavior mountain lions exhibit. There are corollaries in other states. That's what we're seeing is dispersing mountain lions from the West who are just making their way through. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. Caller: I have yeah. Like why would you want one wildlife. So we're fixated on natural but there's other possibilities. So so it is possible in Maine to still to to to have one but you have to be sort of professional handler as it were. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction. I came to a stop and it was and I've seen a lot of bobcats in my time and I just came to a stop it was just sort of confused about what I was seeing. Peter Biello: Well John thanks very much for the story really appreciate it. Sam Evans-Brown: But I mean the video I had been sent was you know a recording of a animal growling but it was in slow motion and when I asked the person why is this in slow motion the denied that it was so there's a lot of weird stuff that happens in regards to people claiming they've seen they've seen these things. MicroBios. I think that you probably are. John. Fish and Wildlife Service decided all of the cougars, pumas, and mountain lions in the country are actually the same species, and that species hasnt had a breeding population anywhere near the Northeast for at least 70 years. However the scarring on the trees did not and the angles were off. We discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. Kansas officials think a mountain lion recently roamed through Shawnee County. What do you think that. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HP yard today we're talking about the mysterious elusive majestic Mystic Mountain Lion. Its closest living relative is the cheetah. They don't know the direction they're going. So I don't understand really how how this this idea came to be but it is the main reason why folks believe that fishing game is is covering up the fact that there are mountain lions in the state again with no evidence. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. And boy it was big it had to be at least 200 pounds the thing was you and and it just made a little bit of noise and it was gone. I noticed it had a really big sweeping tail that kind of curled up behind it and all but still at that point because everyone says there's no mountain lions here. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Sam Evans-Brown: You know the North America had a number of large predator species when humans first arrived in the continent. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. We send out DNA samples to the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. There's always been physical evidence to prove those situations like hair or fur scat hair prints pictures of the animal print scat hair. But you've done some reporting on this. The sightings have not been confirmed; in fact, there have been no confirmed mountain lion sightings in New Hampshire since one was shot and killed on the seacoast in the 1850s, said Patrick Tate . They're just moving around freely. He shifted gears in 2016 and began producing Outside/In, a podcast and radio show about the natural world and how we use it. His work has won him several awards, including two regional Edward R. Murrow awards, one national Murrow, and the Overseas Press Club of America's award for best environmental reporting in any medium. Almost all species disperse greater distances than females. We we hear that there is allegedly a government conspiracy to deny the existence of mountain lions here in New Hampshire so I guess a local government conspiracy. But before I go any further I want to say we do not have sufficient game. They sent he sent his scent those two samples with his to Wyoming an unfortunate Fish and Game Commission there did not get a positive read on it but send it back to Central Michigan University where they did a nuclear micro satellite DNA analysis and found no significant difference between that scat and other scats that were tested from the Rocky Mountain region. Any sense of of whether or not mountain lions are sort of wary of more population dense areas like like the one he was describing Rick. The evidence for the 1874 cougar is so hard that it's held in a display case in the State Museum of . Oh you saw him online. Have it reported down in the Keene area. Well thanks for sharing. So I reached down to grab the camera and looked back and like a ghost it's gone. Good morning guys. Thanks for a great thanks. Think you've seen a mountain lion. Monday, December 5th: Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? There's no attraction. Caller: Oh hi. We're gonna talk about sightings in this part of the program as well we'd love to hear your story. But Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence, Right? Peter Biello: And that will make identification for a layperson rather difficult. Peter Biello: I did mention four feet nose to tail would be kind of small for a mountain lion. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? I wasn't employed as biologists at the time of a situation that's been reported but so I started digging into this report and spoke with another wildlife biologist with the agency and said Do you know anything about this. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. There have been several sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. This animal, IMHO, was probably live caught as an adult from the wild and brought to the . The last documented individuals in the entire Northeast were killed in New Brunswick , Canada, in 1932, and Maine in 1938. As wildlife biologists, wed be fascinated to say 'look look what was found in our state.'. Well let me ask maybe Pat and Rick about this. As I tried to get a picture of it so there was it was definitely we looked up all the pictures and it was definitely not a bobcat or anything else being it looked just like a mountain lion. And they asked me about the tail which I just did not remember that tail out of that whole experience. If so that's for us as an agency. It is also known as cougar, panther, mountain lion, and puma, though catamount is the preferred regional vernacular. Sam Evans-Brown: I just want to say the bang and word you just heard I think to me exemplifies why it's really hard to come up with with positive you know 100 percent certain evidence that you've that what you've got is a mountain lions. They create these big latrines that are very obvious. Anytime at any HP broad dot org or subscribe to our podcast search Apple podcasts Google Play or stitcher for an HP bar exchange. People go through great lengths to create hoaxes like this. Caller: So I've been telling this story for five years or so and very few people believe me. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. The sub-population in Florida is known as the Florida panther . So this whole illegal pet trade black market pro trade thing does does exist in a situation like that can happen. So one thing I'll add. The last known mountain lion killed in New Hampshire is displayed at the Woodman Museum in Dover. Today she talked with us a little bit before the show about why the mountain line is so compelling and why we want it to be part of our world. The second one was not only fresh but when I actually put my hand on it it was you know smelled like cat and I it's there's no denying a fresh mountain lions get if you can tell it every story that KOAT. Course like Sue said you have to see it and it's not always that visible. Well let's hear from from Sue Morse again science director for the organization keeping track. Second when I when they did forward it from Wyoming to to Michigan you know this was coming right from sample 18 and 19 had no remarkable differences from known mountain lions from Michigan or Wyoming. There'd be there'd be all sorts of you know basically a lot of hassle required if that were to happen. Rick van de Poll: Well the mountain lion of course has been sort of an enigma in the wildlife suite for years and years. Some argue that it's a leap of faith. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. Peter Biello: Today on the program Patrick Tate New Hampshire Fish and Game Wildlife biologist and far better project leader Sam Evans Brown host of an HP podcast outside in which is about the natural world and how we use it. No I saw a camel. It doesn't happen as much anymore. You know interactions are pretty unusual. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. The Idaho Department of Fish and Game last week killed a mountain lion that entered a Hailey family's chicken coop, marking the third time the agency has killed a mountain lion in the Wood River . Possible Mountain Lion Sighting in New Hampshire CONCORD, N.H. -- The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department today reported that one of its staff members, following up on a routine report of a mountain lion sighting, saw what is believed to be a mountain lion in a rural area of Barnstead, N.H. Patrick Tate: No downward pressure at all I think actually Sean turned up and we found the evidence there a number of people would finally say finally we can put this debate to bed. Why are there so many false positives? So I know it's another unconfirmed report but you string enough of these together. Okay. Sunny today high temperatures low to mid 80s it'll be clear tonight overnight lows in the 50s for tomorrow sunshine with high temperatures mid to upper 80s. When the federal Endangered Species Act came along, the Eastern Cougar (Puma concolor cougar), the subspecies of Mountain Lon ti hat orgi inally occurred Email exchange it an HP fraud org or give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. The great thing about pictures isn't the animal itself it's the background. Right. Patrick Tate: And there's one other way to model that is the same animal. This is not the same as saying that there has never been a mountain lion seen in New Hampshire. There have been several alleged sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. Incredible sighting and I called him the fish and game and they immediately sent me to a website to look at all the bobcat pictures. support for an HBO who comes from you our listener Sam from advanced in you a local New Hampshire nonprofit specializing in college student loans and student refinancing options. And I just said I saw I saw they from behind the shoulder all the way past the long tail. So you want identifiable backgrounds. That's pretty elaborate. Tell us your story. It's you know I recognized their report and. Sam Evans-Brown: So I just had two thoughts which is that we hear a lot of these stories and all of us here have heard these stories. When you talk about a bobcat Bobcat maybe 80 90 pounds and then a mountain lion could be between 130 and 180 pounds. Border New York on Easter Sunday. And that's this morning at 10:00 here on NH PR. There's these animals aren't coming with a map saying oh I want to go here. The scientific name for the catamount is Puma concolor. But along the lines of the conspiracy theories as you mentioned earlier there there was a bit of a sense on behalf of what I'll call the promo online community who felt that fishing gain maybe not even so much in a spoken policy but maybe sort of an unspoken policy did not want to find themselves in a situation where they had to spend money to create a management plan and so forth. However, dispersing western mountain lions have left evidence as close as Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. A young male cougar weighing about 40 pounds was shot and killed this week near Whiteclay, Nebraska. Russ, from Sandwich (and Bedford) asks: In Sandwich New Hampshire, everybody has a story about seeing a mountain lion. But also I think it proves the opposite point which is that sometimes they're pretty secretive because all the way from Minnesota where the where was the first time was picked up on a game camera to New York. So they're scary. So do they. Give today. Mike you're on the air. He studied Politics and Spanish at Bates College, and before reporting was variously employed as a Spanish teacher, farmer, bicycle mechanic, ski coach, research assistant, a wilderness trip leader and a technical supporter. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. The experts' take on what happened last Saturday when a mountain lion killed one cyclist and injured another outside of Seattle. Novartis sold $1.1 billion worth of Gilenya in the U.S. last year, a 19% drop from 2021 that was caused in part by generic competition, according to . And I can recall its information but I can't confirm or verify anything. John Holt's ideas were at first dismissed but he refused to be silent. Updated: 9:53 AM EST Dec 6, 2016. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. If you missed part of today's program listen to the exchange. 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