For I honestly dont care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. 1. I have used css and divs to create multiple lists for a table structure with four side by side columns. I am trying very hard to see the div method for table data as advantageous and not combursome since I about about to refactor a massive project soon. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness.. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. While using W3Schools, you agree to have read and accepted our. Out of curiosity did you read the post? To compare we really need to look at sites that are well developed on both sites. I totally thought this debate was long dead, but hid a road block and was procrastinating so I thought I would google random stuff and found this. Research As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. If you get where Im coming from, please help me understand using logic. Required fields are marked *. Its quicker to develop with tables Nope. The algorithms used for ranking most often are content and inbound links. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just dont work properly anymore in 2019. I also believe the opposite, theres no point using table rendering if you DO want them to be independent. If you click through on some of the links in the post or just do a search for css vs tables youll come across a lot of the reasoning why some prefer tables. Versatility: It refers to lots of skills. Another example of hype at its finest. I didnt make any specific performance claims here other than faster, which you apparently proved. Newspapers have figured out this ideal layout a long time ago, and have thus named their writers columnists. The language allows web developers to regulate various style elements and functionalities, like layout, color, fonts, and therefore the formatting and display of HTML documents. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. Maybe its because I learned with tables when I was getting started but Divs are complicated and they absolutely do require more code most of the time when you consider practically each object needs to be assigned an ID and go along with a class . I dont agree with their reasoning, but it is there. Home / Blog / CSS / CSS vs Tables: The Debate That Wont Die. With divs its just guessing, maybe this will work. Once a again, thank you for the info! We all came to web design in our own way and with our own skills. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. Some might argue that the content search engines see on the page is more important and through divs its easier to present a different order of content to visitors and search engine spiders. I dont think using css for a layout means the page automatically ranks better. For me this debate is less css vs tables as it is divs vs tables. Thanks for this. In fact your reply only makes it clear you dont know to build sites using divs and css. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. Hopefully they can point you in the right direction with your own designs. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. How is that more maintainable? Most of the sites I create are for small businesses averaging around 10 60 pages. How to override the CSS properties of a class using another CSS class ? Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. And all of this is absolutely hilarious when you attempt to make it work in multiple versions of IE and every other browser, let alone on an iPad or iPhone. Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether its the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. If there is anyone that actually codes full table-based websites by hand I would be curious to know what reasoning they have for not switching. 4. Im surprised this debate continues, though admittedly Im continuing it right now after the question was raised on my small business forum. It only suggests that the difference in load time isnt a lot per page. Odds are pretty good that none of the people who wrote these posts are or were on the development teams that wrote the browser code. You also keep pointing out how everyone who disagrees needs to keep learning, but if youve ever been in a large production environment, youd realize that this is a complete load of bullshit. This post is framed the way it is, because its a reaction to posts framing the topic as html tables are better than css. No one is going to stop you. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. In fact I use them all the time when I want to present data. I disagree about it being more code. I do understand your point. CSS doesnt restrict anything. Home. The tool emits old school attribute heavy html tables but I wrote a little javascript parser that seperates things out into clean html and css. Like others have pointed out, fixing display bugs related to just about any css based layout often takes entire release cycles, just to get ruined even more by some other dopy designer. You are a part of an ever growing majority. The spiders are highly efficient at discerning code from content. Do a search for css vs tables or similar and you can find a lot out there. Its a great way to learn. I do think more code means more chances of making a show stopping kind of error. One instruction can control several areas which is advantageous. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Just because you didnt get it working on your site, dont blame css as though you cant build a site that works across browsers. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. To me, its the most pleasing layout shape. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but The main advantage of CSS is that style is applied consistently across variety of sites. If you find yourself needing hacks then most likely you havent thought out your structure all that well. I believe Whats best in a given scenario depends mostly on the skill set of the person doing the job. Im simply adding another piece to it. On one hand you say you can create 3 columns of equal heights with divs, but in your blog post, you mentioned that people shouldnt try to make tables with divs. 5) Greater Consistency If you use template files and CSS, where is there inconsistency? They arent called floating blockists. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. I dont understand why it would be easier to update content using CSS more so than tables. Time is money. Sure if in some Mexican sweat shop, 5 year olds were parsing pages for Google that may be true, but parsing text is as basic as programming gets other than typing hello world on the screenI really doubt thats an issue for Google, or Yahoo spider programmers. Did you read the post? Very informative article and I hope that it gains some traction so people will stop using so many tables for layout. I just wrote this post a couple months before Matt Cutts mentioned how some at Google were pushing for that to be a factor. It wasnt my intention. One argument the css side always uses is that having your presentation in a separate file makes the site easy to maintain. Any styles defined in the internal and external style sheets are overridden by inline styles. However, the industry moved on from them a long time ago. A square peg and a round hole can both be perfect examples of each and yet not work well together. WebAdvantages of CSS3 CSS3 provides a consistent and precise positioning of navigable elements. They use less code. You say that people apparently think tables are easier than css because they already know tables, but I think youre wrong there. How to align a logo image to center of navigation bar using HTML and CSS ? WebWhat are the advantages to using tables for layout? Im sure with html5 some people will be converted to using all css layouts, but Im also sure many will still cling to tables as they do now. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). We needed three sets of tags to present some content as opposed to the one set of div tags. Regardless the table div comparison above is not accurate. There is no drag and drop anymore. Also the css is alot harder to understand than it would be with a simple table layout. Funny. Ive looked at the page you linked to before and have it bookmarked. It is less complex therefore the effort are significantly reduced. Feel free to email me if you want. Still its hardly the fault of css that IE has bugs. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Both were done with tables. The flexibility is in your html structure. It amazes me that some folks still use tables for layout in this day and age. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! It has the power for re-positioning. Even a simple html site can utilize include files for repeating blocks of markup. Maybe Ill have to write a post on styling tables. Your 2-column layout example could easily be accomplished with a .Net master page. Much of the time I dont have to write anything specific for IE. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. Columns of equal height? And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. Wow. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure so when you need to display data in that structure its actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. Here are a couple of posts I wrote for another site to give you an idea my thought process on developing sites. Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. Youll compare each of the arguments against another based on relevant data. Sure. How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? Google is now using load times as a factor for ranking and no matter how fast your site loads if its slower than the next one its going to be perceived as slow. 2. There are a few downsides while using CSS. CSS is better in both theory and practice. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and many, many more. The argument isnt what a div can do vs what a table can do. Items misaligned, trouble getting the position of floated elements, absurd hacks, you name it. Let us have a glance on the benefits and drawbacks of CSS. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? Just because tables make one thing easier doesnt make them better than divs and css overall. Just change the template file. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. Of course see load times above which now seem to be one signal Google looks at. I wrote a 2 part tutorial on turning design image into a css layout for another site. Take the time to learn how to use it. Anyway, the real reason I wanted to comment here is because I think it is hilarious that Ive been reading people bashing table layouts and saying they cant stand any website that uses tables, then I view the source code and they are commenting on a page that uses tables! My point was they arent the same thing and so to learn how to use divs you should learn the strengths and weaknesses of divs and not try to force the strengths and weaknesses of tables and table cells on them. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. If you want to report an error, or if you want to make a suggestion, do not hesitate to send us an e-mail: W3Schools is optimized for learning and training. I dont offer any advantage per se, on tables over divs. Different browsers rendered the design differently. Having developed and worked on sites both ways Im 100% certain structuring your layout with tables is not the way to go. Browser compatibility (some styles sheet are supported and some are not). Easy to learn: JavaScript is easy to learn. A div is a more generic container that doesnt impose any structure on the content within. Ive been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables for layout for 13 years. If you need to create a modern site that supports an older browser, CSS imposes huge costs. Thanks for the online references, Steven. The places where this occurs has problems with that flow. Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. Tables have proven themselves and Im going old school. Believe me, Im not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. Thats not the case. The reset files basically set many things back to 0. Ive been told I can create any design feasible with CSS, so I have offered the above URLs as examples you can either confirm or be dubious about relative to their successful conversion to CSS from tables. What Im trying to figure out is the benefits in using CSS for LAYOUT. Ive seen a bunch of posts telling me that tables are the old way and other posts telling me tables are the wrong way for page layout, but have heard few good reasons why this is so, at least for small websites. Its now moving on from the CSS methods that replaced tables and using CSS thats being written specifically to lay out sites. Consistency. Cmon man! Im not disagreeing with anything you say. Home. IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. It sounds like Im being lumped in with other people who are making grand claims. This can provide evidence that will back-up a particular choice. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. Regarding Google using load times, does that mean that if your server is on a lower bandwidth connection, or on a slower server that Google will hold that against you, or do they have a way of disregarding those variables and just base it on how long each page would take to load if bandwidth, lag and server response were constant? However my make them spend more time parsing if you dont have. Learning CSS/div coding seems a daunting task because they dont really know the code in the first place. Could you send me a link to the page? However, know that the industry has moved on. Im still using the spacer.gif to tweak spacing. That leads to easier maintenance, more freedom in design, and quicker load times. I use Dreamweaver template files. If I misinterpreted that I apologize. This can be very expensive. I think you hit the nail right on the head with this comment. You can still develop an accessible site with tables. However, I dont think thats the main reason to choose a css layout over a table-based layout. There are multiple levels which creates confusion for non-developers and beginners. It has nothing to do with other tools. benefits to css 2. is full css faster 3. IE sucks and makes my page look a pile of crap. Youre welcome to use them to layout sites if you want. In my scenario, I flip the first and second td elements in a .Net master page. I think anyone that codes by hand knows that CSS/div is easier to work with in that way. The rest is a necessary evil to get the design into the medium. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. it could also be your own code or more likely that your code and my code arent working well other. First Im glad to see you making the switch. It is easier with divs, but it can also be done with tables. I have nothing against using tables. Same thing with the issue youre having with css. Generally you wouldnt be setting heights on most divs allowing them to expand and contract based on the text. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. You do have to put in a little time to learn how to layout a site with css, but once learned its not hard to do. Mark your site would be very easy to code with a css layout. An example of this lie is what proponents of divs like to show off by only having a few divs compared to a table structure, but in order to get even close to having the same properties as table we have to use something like the last example in http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/ as the others are just faking the appearance with a background image. Thanks Kevin. Is there a way I can pay someone to turn this same homepage design into a total CSS design? It sounds like youre using tables the same way Im suggesting is fine. I really like using CSS for formatting text, lists, positioning, etc. Its more in how you code it where I dont think html tables are the right approach. I try making 100% css layouts and they never are cross browser effective, so I resort back to tables and I never have issues. As people combat these myths the debate goes on and on combating misinformation while dancing around the central issue. I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. Can you recommend several online tutorials on how to lay out a web page with divs, as well as with their accompanying css rule elements? Maybe you want to move the sidebar from the left to the right of the content. CSS, CSS 1 up to CSS3, result in creating of confusion among web browsers. As for the I dont need any extra code to get stuff to work for ie when using divs and css, really is that so? But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. My guess as to why they didnt learn it as well as you is because its actually not intuitive as you say, especially when trying to implement a grid shape with 3 independent blocks. Artificial intelligence designer salary. I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. Having done programming I understand reusability of code and the ease of making changes in one place for large websites, but this is little good with small sites. Advantages of Inline CSS: Inline takes precedence over all other styles. WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to take me seriously. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. Itll probably be a week or two before I have the time to really look, but if you email me the code I will look. I agree your point of view. CSS is a standard across the board. Youll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. By the way if something you followed here didnt work for you, you could have chosen to ask me if Id help figure out why and I likely would have. I think your comments re flexibility and structure have merit assuming the only tools available are html and css. Nothing you said is true and most of it doesnt make any sense. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. Ill reserve judgment on maintenance but I have a hunch Ill be able to go in and make the same changes equally as quickly whether I start with the div or table test pages. I think it makes them easier to move them around on a single page. Maybe Ill apply changes to my test pages as my home page changes and track the time involved. Divs cant do what tables can as simple as that. To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. Early on you had to use tables to layout a site well. Web1. Were not quite there yet with what wed like to do where design is concerned. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. The greater flexibility you can create with your structure and the maintenance advantages are the more important reasons. Graphics are easier in CSS3, thus making it easy to make the site appealing. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. If I had stopped my study on the first day the table would have won by an equally small margin. You make good points. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages, and no technique is designed to be used in isolation. more flexible since one div is not dependent on the other divs on the page it allows for more freedom in your design, quicker to load blocks of code can be presented right away instead of the browser requiring an extra pass. Great debate. Yes you use less code using divs than tables. Odds are though they would look at every data point they could so I would think a slower server would mean potentially worse ranking. The resulting code runs issue free cross browser. Im not trying to say that tables are better, but this whole css and divs are better is wrong imo, its about using the right tool for the right job, divs are good for block layout designs its what they do best, whereas tables are better for column type layouts. John if youre having to adjust margins and paddings and height and width because youre updating text youve done something wrong when setting up the code. Im not going to stop you. I dont care what anybody says. As far as the speed issues, Google didnt really talk about load times affecting ranking until after I wrote this post. Research another option instead of a table for displaying the You either learn code or you use a 1990s style basic editor where you can assemble a site in minutes with tables that will adjust to a any modern display or device. The one that continues using tables is because it does not dominate or does not know CSS. The load time though, is now reason enough to recommend css over tables for seo. The conclusion is I dont know the language well enough to communicate in it. The fact that different browsers and different versions of browsers look at these and other variables differently is a really pain. Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page theres room to improve. I code both a little differently now, but the posts might still help. Tables seem, at least to me, to be much more intuitive. I think it gets an unfair rap sometimes. If anything I think the code would be almost equal and the differences insignificant. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. My div test page was only 2285 bytes smaller then my table page which would save me 1.74 MB/month of data transfer. It permits online videos to be seen without using third-party plug-ins. In my career I have worked with two types of people, fanatics and realists. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. A-143, 9th Floor, Sovereign Corporate Tower, We use cookies to ensure you have the best browsing experience on our website. If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! Every table cell is dependent on the other table cells in its row to maintain the structure. Thats easy. I have no great love for code. In its simplest form were comparing: Even in the simplest case above you can see tables are already a more complex structure than divs. Not all browsers (especially older versions) render tables the same. External style sheets have some tremendous advantages: You can define the style sheet in one document and have all the HTML files refer to the CSS file. However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. You dont need 3 columns in your header. The secret is you have to use < and > for the angle brackets or it gets interpreted as actual code. Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. When you create a table structure in html it displays a table and your content is wholly dependent on the source order of the code. What css function does that? 3. But some things can be said about the style of a website. With a simple table structure the extra time might not be noticeable, but as the structure becomes more complex with more and more tables nested inside each other it is noticeable. Id rather use the more forward thinking approach, but again to each their own. 5. Ive never read about this debate until now, however in the back of my mind I always knew someone(s) was debating it. Been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables and to... Odds are though they would look at these and other variables differently is a really pain browsers look at data. What they call it.. as long as it still works like.... 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